According to atheist author Christopher Hitchens, Islamic terrorists are “the most godly imaginable group” of religious people.
Hitchens appeared on the April 8 MSNBC broadcast of “Hardball” to debate the Family Research Council's Ken Blackwell on what Newsweek editor Jon Meacham hailed as, “The Rise and Fall of Christian America” in its April 14 issue.
Substitute host Mike Barnicle, who introduced Hitchens as “a Vanity Fair columnist and the author of the must-read 'God is Not Great,'” allowed a spirited debate between Blackwell and Hitchens that touched on the religiosity of America's Founding Fathers and the meaning of separation of church and state. Hitchens crowed about “as many as 16 percent of people now identify as having no faith of any kind and that's double what it was a decade ago. It's the fastest growing group in United States. So, yes, there's a real crisis of faith in this country.”
Barnicle himself couldn't help but throw a few barbs at Catholics and conservative Christians while seeking an answer to the question of why a Newsweek poll found a seven percent decrease in the number of people who consider America a Christian nation since last July:
Mr. Blackwell, let me ask you, do you think over the course of the last ten years or so, the injection of so many preachers, let's say, ministers into politics, from largely from the right-hand side of the dial, and on the left-hand side of the dial, so many Catholics becoming greatly upset with the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic church, do you think that has damaged people of faith in this country? Let's not use the word Christian. Do you think people have less faith in their religious institutions today as a result of the injection of too many public people and too many public events, sordid events, into the body politic?”
Hitchens added his own take to Barnicle's question:
John Meacham's very thoughtful article, which is the one that brought us together today, I think, does show there's a decline in certainty among those who claim to be of faith and I think we could all probably agree on that. The one thing he didn't mention that I think he should have done or should have stressed more, another very important salient recent change, namely our worst enemy in the world, the one that most seeks to destroy us, is very obviously a faith-based one. And when people look around the world and they see the amount of theocratic bullying and sabotage going on and murder and sadism conducted by the parties of god, it's not as simple as it used to be when the right wing could say, well, our enemy is godless communism. Now our enemy is the most godly imaginable group.
To Hitchens' credit, recognizing that the United States actually has an enemy other than Dick Cheney is near to heresy on MSNBC. But in equating murderous Islamist terrorists with Christians, he slandered all people of faith.
Besides, Hitchens ignored that even though Newsweek tantalizingly proclaimed on its cover “The Decline and Fall of Christian America,” and Meacham's article was titled, “The End of Christian America,” (during Holy Week, no less) Meacham himself stated, “rumors of the death of Christianity are greatly exaggerated” and that “there is no doubt that the nation remains vibrantly religious – far more so, for instance than Europe.”
The complete transcript of the debate follows:
MIKE BARNICLE, host: Welcome back to "Hardball," incidentally. Are we witnessing the fall of Christianity in America? According to a new "Newsweek" poll, 62% of Americans consider the United States a Christian nation. That's down from 69% during the tail end of the bush presidency last year and a whopping 68% say religion is losing its influence in American life. Ken Blackwell is with the Family Research Council and Christopher Hitchens is a "Vanity Fair" columnist and the author of the must-read "God is Not Great" which has just come out in paperback. Christopher, let's start with you. Let me ask you a question. What does it mean, if anything, when people refer to the United States of America as a Christian nation?
CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS, Vanity Fair: It's literally a meaningless statement. I mean the constitution quite deliberately forbids all mention of God – I should say omits all mention of god, let alone of Jesus and the – though the Declaration of Independence mentions the creator, it very specifically doesn't say that this creator intervenes. Most of the people who wrote the declaration were deists, not theists. It's true to say that the majority of the believers in America are Christian, but that's a benign fact. Many of them, I know, from going and debating with them on my book tour, going into their churches, are full of themselves of doubt. In other words people who have responded saying they're Christian are very full of doubt and skepticism. And the few you don't mention but perhaps I could introduce it is perhaps as many as 16 percent of people now identify as having no faith of any kind and that's double what it was a decade ago. It's the fastest growing group in the United States. So, yes, there's a real crisis for faith in this country now.
BARNICLE: Ken Blackwell, well, a, off of what Christopher said, is there a crisis of faith in this country? Do you doubt at all that this is a Christian nation?
KEN BLACKWELL, Family Research Council: No, I really don't doubt that. The – if you look at the precepts that the foundation is built on, it is a nation that does not have a naked public square but one that is built on a moral foundation. Now, I – look, I think it's very clear –
HITCHENS: Doesn't make it Christian.
BLACKWELL: – that it ebbs and flows in our 232-year history. But from George Washington to Abraham Lincoln to our latter day presidents, there has been a fundamental understanding that there is the moral foundation based on Judeo-Christian precepts.
BARNICLE: Christopher Hitch –
HITCHENS: Wrong I'm afraid. It's just flat out wrong based on what Thomas Jefferson called a wall of separation between politics and religion. When the people of Dan-- the Baptists [unintelligible]–of Danbury, Connecticut wrote to him asking for protection, they were asking for protection from whom, Mr. Blackwell? Do you remember?
BLACKWELL: Well, listen –
HITCHENS: From the Congregationalists of Danbury, Connecticut, who didn't consider them to be real Americans.
BLACKWELL: Christopher, could I have a word in edgewise?
HITCHENS: By all means.
BLACKWELL: There is a separation of church and state. There is not a separation of faith and politics. And there has never been the presumption that we run our day-to-day lives through a faithless prism when we make our decisions. We're not told that we have to leave our faith at the public square's edge. So it is just flat-out nonsense to suggest that this country was built on anything other than an understanding of Judeo-Christian principles and precepts that give us the moral foundation that allows free market enterprise and the primacy of the individual in our political system, not the primacy of the state.
HITCHENS: Through the first amendment of the constitution defined any such reference. Why don't you try checking out Thomas Jefferson's version of the New Testament, for example, where he cuts out all references to the divinity of Jesus?
BLACKWELL: Christopher, let me just say to you that in the Declaration of Independence, you made reference to it. It says we hold these truths to be self evident. So we don't have to be the erudite that you are to understand a basic precept that our country is built on a set of universal truths that all of us are created equal, that we're endowed by our creator, our human rights don't come from government. They come from our creator.
HITCHENS: You're being very stubborn. This does not say Christian at any point, doesn't even imply it. The person who put in self-evident on that committee was Benjamin Franklin who was undoubtedly an atheist. The main drafter of the declaration, Thomas Jefferson was by no means a Christian. George Washington wouldn't take communion. It's all true.
BLACKWELL: Let me just ask, let me just ask you, Christopher, do you think that the founders and the pilgrims were not Christians?
HITCHENS: The pilgrims were Christians.
BLACKWELL: If we're talking about historical accuracy, let's, let's be, let's be forthright. You know it and I know it that in this –
HITCHENS: The pilgrims are not the founders, my dear sir.
BLACKWELL: Christopher, Christopher, I'm not going to let you bogart me. Let me just say this. That it –
HITCHENS: You're just going to keep talking?
BLACKWELL: I believe that you have a constitutional right to be theologically wrong. And I will defend –
HITCHENS: I don't require your permission. I didn't require permission. That's the whole point.
BLACKWELL: I will defend your right to be theologically wrong.
HITCHENS: Actually, I don't have a constitutional right to that.
BLACKWELL: I will defend your right to be theologically wrong. But I will not abandon historical fact, and that is that this country is built on a moral foundation that is framed by Judeo-Christian principles.
HITCHENS: Mr. Blackwell –
HITCHENS: The pilgrims and the founders just are not the same. The Spanish arrivals also were Christians. They were Catholic. Before there was a United States of America. The United States of America's founding documents are secular. If you don't know that, you don't know anything.
BARNICLE: Well, let's update it a bit. Mr. Blackwell, let me ask you, do you think over the course of the last ten years or so, the injection of so many preachers, let's say, ministers into politics, from largely from the right-hand side of the dial and on the left-hand side of the dial, so many Catholics becoming greatly upset with the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic church, do you think that has damaged people of faith in this country? Let's not use the word Christian. Do you think people have less faith in their religious institutions today as a result of the injection of too many public people and too many public events, sordid events, into the body politic?
BLACKWELL: Michael, let's be clear that over our 232-year history, the influence of faith in our day-to-day lives have ebbed and flowed. And the reality is that in 1981, everybody was saying that the church was irrelevant, Christianity was dead. And we then saw 25 years of an influential church and an expansion of faith. This country of ours –
HITCHENS: Name one person who said that in 1981 –
BLACKWELL: Excuse me. This country –
HITCHENS: Name one person who said that in 1981. And aren't you going to have even a shot at answering the question?
BLACKWELL: Excuse me. No. There were newspaper articles, Christopher, and you and I can come back and I'll wave them in front of you, put them under your nose. But the fact of the matter is that even the latest articles on this issue has made it clear that we've been at a low ebb before and we will come back. And I'll just tell you what W.E. Archer used to say.
HITCHENS: I'll answer the question, I'll answer the question if you give me a chance.
BLACKWELL: It might take a crucified church to bring a crucified Christ into the eyes – into the view of the eyes of the world. So don't tell me that just because we're in a struggle –
BARNICLE: Last word, Christopher Hitchens.
BLACKWELL: Struggle that –
HITCHENS: Then let me just – I don't mind answering your question, Mr. Barnacle. John Meacham's very thoughtful article, which is the one that has brought us together today, I think, does show there's a decline in certainty among those who claim to be of faith and I think we could all probably agree on that. The one thing he didn't mention that I think he should have done or should have stressed more, another very important salient recent change, namely our worst enemy in the world, the one that most seeks to destroy us is very obviously a faith-based one. And when people look around the world and they see the amount of theocratic bullying and sabotage going on and murder and sadism conducted by the parties of god, it's not as simple as it used to be when the right wing could say, well, our enemy is Godless communism. Now our enemy is the most godly imaginable group.
BARNICLE: Christopher Hitchens "God is Not Great" out in paperback. Ken Blackwell, thanks very much. We appreciate it.